Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Brian Donohue's avatar

As a fellow “ex-Cat, now-Ortho,” I half agree. A deep difference of mentality has grown over time, and this difference is often a bigger deal than the “content” in the abstract. Can bishops loosen fasting requirements? Of course. Does it make sense to never fast (or only fast 2 days a year)? No, now you’ve lost something essential. The Rosary as a tool for meditation on the Gospel? Sure, that’s fine (though it’s well below the Mass, the Office, the Jesus Prayer, actual lectio divina, etc, as a form of prayer). But as a mega-prayer weapon revealed by Mary herself, with wild bargains attached to it, that will “convert the world to her immaculate heart”? Ehh… no.

But by the same token, Orthodox these days have a bad habit of painting with the world’s broadest brush, blindly firing at anything Western because we feel “something” is off. Peter III of Antioch was a wise man. And we need to be similarly wise to not conflate X is Orthodox with X is Eastern/Byzantine. And so I’m highly sympathetic to conversation about those Western things, even the (yes) “post schism” things. Because—and I think this was the good patriarch’s point—if the things “at the heart” were corrected, there would be broad enough space for local variation and development, as there always has been in the Church.

To sum up, for Rome to return to Orthodoxy would not be for it to become Byzantine. It would have to recover its own deep tradition. The “TLM” (i.e. the ancient, apostolic Roman liturgy) is wonderful, but otherwise the “return to tradition” doesn’t mean what traditionalists think it means: fiddlebacks, and Latin-only, and baroquey organ preludes, and the 99 day devotion to Christ’s 999 wounds, and late scholastic theology. It means communing your babies and public Vespers being normal.

Expand full comment
All Flame's avatar

I think a side issue to what you discussed (beautiful btw) is this whole West vs East thing and where it really originated.

The broad “West” is convinced they are the true orthodox and the east are Greek heretics. Calvin Robinson is one of the worst believers of this nonsense. This began with the Frankish theologians fighting Nicea 2 and the crowning of Charlemagne and was largely promulgated by Aquinas’s against the Greeks.

Where I woke up was when I realized the Orthodox Church we have today is the continuation of the state religion of the Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church is not.

The English speaking descendants were some of the most negatively impacted by this. It needs to be emphasized but in Britain as an example when the Normans conquered the land they literally replaced all the bishops with continental clergy who would implement the Gregorian reforms.

These Gregorian reforms were largely the product of false canon laws (pseudo isidorian decretals) where the western church pushed restart on all first millennium canon law and it was essentially re-done without any input from the other Christians.

The total arrogance of Western European protestants and Catholics to insist year after year they are true orthodox with almost no knowledge of the first millennium and second millennium Orthodox Church is peak delusion.

Expand full comment
68 more comments...

No posts